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Never, and it's mean of you to suggest it.

0 (0%)

Never, but they have come close. . .

10 (16.9%)

Yes, when Chris DeGarmo left the band

7 (11.9%)

Two words: Susan Tate (as manager, that is)

21 (35.6%)

One word: queensryche.com

2 (3.4%)

Yes, when Geoff's voice hit the black.

3 (5.1%)

Yes, for other reasons (be kind and specify them! - a specific album, Geoff disowning the metal genre, politics, etc...)

8 (13.6%)

QR deciding, for reasons best known to them, to have a ground-breaking partnership with Lita Ford

2 (3.4%)

Two fatal words: QUEENSRYCHE CABARET.

6 (10.2%)

Total Members Voted: 59

[Rhythm_Of_Hope]

After all the serious debate over the last few weeks on QR's need to do some serious work and move forward, I thought I'd toss this out for discussion.

"Jump the shark". The phrase, coined by Jon Hein, is growing a bit old these days (and some say it's actually "jumped" itself!), but I'm sure everyone knows what I'm talking about. It's that one point, or incident, where a person, band or work (such as a novel or movie) completely shoots itself in the foot, and has trouble being taken seriously thereafter, no matter what they do from then on.

So my question to everyone out there: In your opinion, has QR ever done this?

Be as objective as you can. We aren't talking about minor missteps or details, like them singing "White Christmas", Kelly Gray's version of Jet City Woman, Mike Stone's backing vocals, Geoff's hair, or the lyrics of Sacred Ground  . We're talking about major decisions / changes that have affected the band and have caused it to lose face or credibility in a big way.

Also, this isn't meant to be a thread for slamming the band, or any of its members, in any way. We all love QR, which is why we're on this board. But the band isn't the force it used to be, for a variety of reasons. Do you think these are critical enough for them to have made the aquatic leap?

I personally don't think so myself, and I'd vote for option 2. Over to you.

[KDO]

OMII

[Lucretia]

Sue Tate. Anytime you allow a single band member's family member to make decisions steering the band, especially one that has no prior experience in band management or, for that matter, any sort of business acumen (it's not like she's Sharon Osbourne), it is a huge mistake of Spinal Tap-like proportions. It is my opinion that Susan's managerial status is likely at fault for a lot of things, from CDG being unwilling to rejoin the band, to the fact that the guys haven't replaced him with a capable guitarist with similar skills and influences, to the constant, relentless touring schedule that keeps Geoff's voice shot most of the time. Plus, it just looks ridiculous, and makes Geoff look like a puppet.

[rich p.]

I know Tate can't sing the high stuff anymore , but has anybody  looked at the Dream Theater clip from Gods of metal 2009. James just sounds painful and i think worse than Tate.

[Setlist Scotty]

Sue Tate. Anytime you allow a single band member's family member to make decisions steering the band, especially one that has no prior experience in band management or, for that matter, any sort of business acumen (it's not like she's Sharon Osbourne), it is a huge mistake of Spinal Tap-like proportions. It is my opinion that Susan's managerial status is likely at fault for a lot of things, from CDG being unwilling to rejoin the band, to the fact that the guys haven't replaced him with a capable guitarist with similar skills and influences, to the constant, relentless touring schedule that keeps Geoff's voice shot most of the time. Plus, it just looks ridiculous, and makes Geoff look like a puppet.

Couldn't have said it any better, so I won't. This X 100!

[screaminginseattle]

Susan Tate....anytime you pick a band member's wife over one of the founding members and fan favorite, you have not only jumped the shark you memorialized Spinal Tap.

I would love her to come on the BDR just once, just ONCE, and explain herself or just post something to the BDR with her thoughts, challenges and to set the record straight.  Just once!  But no, they all lurk in background....hell the band knew who Powerslave was, so they do read this board and like .com, you have the truest of true fans yet Susan's lack of addressing the 800lb elephant in the room and ignoring this board is pitiful.  

If I was the manager and I felt wronged and under attack or saw these posts, I would have already gone on here and just posted what is really happening and explain it once and for all and then be done with it.  Jason is brillant for coming on here from time to time and posting his thoughts and his point of view and I appreciate him so much more for doing that.  Takes balls....and while Susan is great at throwing her weight around and being "tough" it is astounding to me that she doesnt approach the BDR with the same emphasis.

Come out of the shadows Susan and just post to BDR once and explain your side of things. I would personally love to hear it.  I really would.  Just want to understand both sides of the story and what you are trying to do with the band, what your vision and plan is and why you made some of the decisions you have made in the past.  It would be fascianting, but I wont hold my breath...


SiS

[Samsara]

Susan Tate....anytime you pick a band member's wife over one of the founding members and fan favorite, you have not only jumped the shark you memorialized Spinal Tap.

I would love her to come on the BDR just once, just ONCE, and explain herself or just post something to the BDR with her thoughts, challenges and to set the record straight.  Just once!

SiS, it wouldn't do any good.  In my opinion, she'd just lie or tell half-truths to cover up everything.  The record IS straight.  Folks just don't happen to like what they've heard, so many bury their heads in the sand.  And that's fine.  People handle certain things differently.  The bottom line is that "Queensryche" nowadays is really a Tate Family Affair.  Chris left, Susan was given more and more power by the guys in the band, and now she runs the ship.  Sure, the guys probably vote on all decisions, but come on now, you know Susan is looking to fill pockets, so she presents whatever it is she presents to the guys, and emphasizes the income.  You think they won't do it?  Of course they will.

Susan is not completely to blame for the current state of "Queensryche."  She has a large portion of the blame, but it also rests on the shoulders of the actual band members.  if Wilton, Jackson, and Rockenfield put their foots down, said "Sorry Geoff, sorry Susan, but here, we've written these 20 songs for the next album, and we like them, and want to use them," well, it'd happen.  In fact, I bet you GEOFF wants that to happen.  But it doesn't.

The fact it doesn't can't entirely be Susan's fault.  In fact, she's done some GOOD things for the band.  Sure, I criticize her a lot, and so do many others.  She's made some really poor decisions.  But she's also worked her tail off, gotten the band back on its feet, and maximizes its profit.  You have to give her credit for that.

Now, just because she's done some good wipe away everything else (poor fan relations, short-sighted business decisions, throwing QR's name in the trash to sell it out and make money, etc.)?  Of course it doesn't.  But the band also has responsibility for this, and frankly, they should be ashamed they don't write their own material any longer, and have allowed the band's name (after work so hard to separate themselves -- and mostly succeeding for awhile -- from 80s hair metal) to fall in the crapper.

But no, they all lurk in background....hell the band knew who Powerslave was, so they do read this board and like .com, you have the truest of true fans yet Susan's lack of addressing the 800lb elephant in the room and ignoring this board is pitiful.  

Tate, Wilton, Lundgren, and Rockenfield have all been on here, multiple times, and some regularly, monitoring what is said (not to mention folks they've worked with in the past and various record industry people to gauge what fan reaction is to what QR is doing).

If I was the manager and I felt wronged and under attack or saw these posts, I would have already gone on here and just posted what is really happening and explain it once and for all and then be done with it.  Jason is brillant for coming on here from time to time and posting his thoughts and his point of view and I appreciate him so much more for doing that.  Takes balls....and while Susan is great at throwing her weight around and being "tough" it is astounding to me that she doesnt approach the BDR with the same emphasis.

Come out of the shadows Susan and just post to BDR once and explain your side of things. I would personally love to hear it.  I really would.  Just want to understand both sides of the story and what you are trying to do with the band, what your vision and plan is and why you made some of the decisions you have made in the past.  It would be fascianting, but I wont hold my breath...


SiS

As I mentioned above, SiS, it wouldn't do any good.  You wouldn't get an honest answer.  Susan is also (from my experiences dealing with her, and from friends that dealt with her after me) a huge ego.  This board is probably "beneath" her.  Sure, she DOES monitor it, but she'd never honestly come on here because she can't control what will be said.

That is the whole problem with her, Geoff, and this community.  They HATE it, because they can't CONTROL it.  It's what got me booted from .com long ago.  They hated the fact I spoke my mind.  They hated I asked questions, and then sat there and publicly hypothesized what was going on behind the scenes.

In fact, I got a PM from her once on .com, telling me not to post any longer, because I was hitting "too close to home" and that they didn't like that people were starting to believe me.  That is not a joke, that is absolutely 100 percent truth.  And the kicker is, honestly, while I wrote some articles for the fan club magazine, I NEVER had ANY inside information.  None at all.  I was just a guy writing articles for them.  But I had a real good knack for connecting the dots, and just talking about it, like I do on here.

So, given I wasn't "in the know" or on the QR.com payroll, I refused to censor myself, and then just a little while later, after Geoff mocked one of my posts, I replied very artfully and basically called out all the crap he was spewing (respectfully), and then found myself booted.

They hate what they can't control.  Period.  

They can control .com if they don't like what is being said.  They can't do that here, and that is intimidating because quite honestly, they know they have a lot to hide.

That said, at least they were honest about American Soldier's creation.  And frankly, that openness is a direct result of this board's existence.  I said after Mindcrime II that if they were just open and honest about how it was created, people wouldn't have been up in arms.

And I was right.  From the start, they said who wrote the record and were fairly honest about things.  And that's a credit to them for reading what was said here, and doing it.  Same thing about the "suites of songs" they are playing on tour.  I am the one that suggested that on here a few years back.

So again, some credit to them is deserved for listening to folks here (and not just me, a bunch of you guys have said things that have been done by the QR camp).  But they still wish this place didn't exist, because they can't control what is being said.  And ultimately, if we say something that a lot of people latch onto, they know that they have their work cut out for them to do it.


At the end of the day, Susan is a large part to blame, but the band is equally at fault for allowing her to be in her position, and signing off on the things presented to them.  They made their bed.  Now they need to sleep in it.  If their priority was band creativity and art, they probably would step up.  But the priority is obviously money, and Susan has shown she has a knack for securing short term cash grabs which keeps everyone happy...everyone except the old time fans that can see how shortsighted the approach is.

[screaminginseattle]

I guess for me the only thing that matters is the fact that Chris is not in the band and from everything I have read and heard  is that Susan had not not only a big part to play in why Chris left, but is also a large stumbling block for him to ever come back.

That to me is all that matters and why Susan should be held accountable, not only by the fans, but also by the rest of the fricken band.  And to me, the ONLY compelling event on the planet for Chris to come back is this Broadway thing.  That is why I harp on it.  It is going to be the only thing big enough that will create either a cooperation from the band/Susan and Chris or be enough reason to pitch her to the side and bring him back.  Only time will tell, but I betcha  that we are going to read in six months that OM is not going to be done because of the economy or because they couldnt get a financial backer, or anything other then Susan and the band screwed it up.  

I loved AS and I loved the latest tour and the fact that my fav band is still out there doing it. But I hate the fact that Chris is not there and other directions the band has gone.  

Frustrating....


SiS

[Samsara]

Your post was modified by me for violating Rule #14 of this forum.  Please re-read the rule and make sure to not do that again, please.

I would agree it is likely Susan and money were probably stumbling blocks in Chris ever coming back to the band.  But, those things aren't going to change.  They could IF the band actually stepped up and said "this is what we are doing."  But they don't, and you can't pin that totally on Susan.  At the end of the day, if the band really wanted Chris in, and Susan out, they'd do it.

But they more care about the almighty dollar and making as much dough as they can, and having Chris back would mean he'd take away from that.  And that ain't goin' to happen.  Not with today's Queen$ryche.

Trust me, I feel your pain about CHris.  He and Geoff were the foundation of QR's creativity.  For me, and many others, it simply is NOT THE SAME BAND.  But you can't pin it ALL on Susan.  A big part of it is, in my opinion, but the band could always step up and tell her to sit down, shut up, and give Chris an equal share of money, and control in the band's direction, both business-wise, and music-wise.  But they don't, and so at least half that blame goes on the remaining four members.

Has hell frozen over?  Am I actually somewhat defending Susan Tate?   

[Rhythm_Of_Hope]

Well, with this having now gone on for over 24 hours, let's take stock:

1. We don't have any "blind fanboys" on this board, which I guess I already knew, as no one has voted for option 1.

2. A few people share my opinion that though the band hasn't jumped, it has come perilously close on occasions.

3. Though Geoff's voice and QR.com are regular topics for discussion on this board (and the latter annoys the hell out of me), they don't seem to be the main reasons why the band is losing it, probably because both can be fixed with a bit of hard work and the correct decisions (vocal coach, quit the evil ciggies, get a better webmaster, etc.)

4. There are some miscellaneous reasons that annoy some of us. KDO alluded to OMII, which is understandable, because OMI is a seminal prog-metal album, and OMII - whatever its merits, is still a come-down from OMI's heights. (Maybe I should have added another option: "Three Words - All The Promises"  )

5. Strangely, there aren't many takers for "QR - DeGarmo = Jump the shark", which surprises me. I guess what we really want is that, even if Chris never comes back, the band gets a top-notch guitarist who can also do background vocals and contribute to the songwriting process, to act as a counterpoise to the more prog-rock, melody-oriented, emotion-focused (and at times melodramatic) Geoff Tate. It can still happen. The band isn't old enough for the rocking chair yet (with apologies to the Eagles) and they still have time to fix this.

6. Samsara, did you by any chance vote for the last option (with the idea of "Three words - Losing My Credibility"?) 

7. Finally, it seems that if we could change it all, we'd all have Susan relinquish the wheel and hand over managerial responsibilities to someone with actual qualifications and experience (in managing the band, that is, not in exotic dancing  ) Sadly, at least to me, that's not going to happen. The part below this is just speculation, and if it offends anyone, I shall redact it accordingly.

My reason for saying so is that Geoff seems to be very, very attached to her, if not actually dependent (in an emotional or psychological sense). I base this conclusion, tentative as it is, on a few points:

* Geoff's own lyrics: Even if we stop knocking "Sacred Ground" and "Anytime/Anywhere", we have: "Saved" (where he's literally imploring a significant other to save him and restore him to life), "You" (lighthearted, but he certainly has turned the band upside down and inside out for Sue), and half of Q2K (heck, apart from Falling Down, Breakdown, Burning Man and The Right Side Of My Mind, that record is practically a concept album about his love for Susan and his family). Note that when DeGarmo got back on board, that aspect of the lyrical content was damped down (you can at the most make a case for Losing Myself and the first verse of Rhythm Of Hope). And though OM:II and American Soldier couldn't logically include this sort of track, "Home Again" can be construed in this manner.

* The dynamics within the band: True, Geoff is the de facto band leader and handles most of the interviews, the lyrics, etc. However, he is extremely quick to give credit to Susan in interviews and even on albums, and her name appears on all the remasters even though I doubt she had anything to do with the likes of Rage For Order or Promised Land. The uncharitable way of looking at it is to assume that she's a shrew (to use an old-fashioned word - apologies if anyone thinks this is sexist, it wasn't meant that way) and would bite his head off if they weren't there  , but I'd prefer to be a little more positive. Also, because this relationship has become the "core" of QR from a psychological point of view, the other band members are dissatisfied and look outside the band for musical expression (Soulbender being the greatest example - even though Whip doesn't write lyrics, the more I read the words of some of their songs, the more I think there's a connection to the situation with QR). While the others might have tried to have their say or rock the boat at times (I'll give them credit for that), they might have found themselves ignored or arbitrarily sidelined and decided to stop wasting their energy - a phenomenon known as learned helplessness.

* Geoff's solo album, to which the comments I've made about Q2K above apply - not just lyrically, but musically.

* The sensitivity to criticism that the band has shown since Susan got on board. I'm pretty sure this is a trait of hers and not Geoff's, judging by some of the reports of her conduct I've read here and on the now-largely defunct rec.arts.music.queensryche. When your personality traits start interfering in the handling of a band that you aren't even a member of, you have a problem, and so does the band "leader" for allowing you to get away with it.

My conclusion? The Geoff / Susan relationship has reached a point where the boundaries between spouse and manager have become blurred; Susan probably wants to (consciously or otherwise) "run" QR like she does her family. Geoff, in turn, would probably consider firing Susan as manager the equivalent of divorcing or dumping her. Now I don't begrudge Geoff and Susan their happiness. I see enough unhappiness within families (heck, it's part of my job) as it is, and can appreciate the opposite. We've been willing to cut QR a lot of slack. But (to quote one of Geoff's own lyrics) "where does one draw the line in the face of injury?"

We're not wishing Susan Tate ill in any manner. All we want (here I go with the DeGarmo lyrics) is for the band to run like a rock band, and not like the Dysfunctional Family Circus that it looks like at times. Get someone on board who can counterbalance Geoff (yin / yang, if you will). Whether that person is a manager or a strong-willed guitarist/songwriter is irrelevant, as long as they can fill that particular part of Chris' role.

Summing up - I'm reminded of the passage in Adrian Mole where Adrian, after having comically attempted to run away from home, has to meet a psychologist and list out all his problems. He makes a long list, in which a major item is that Pandora, the girl he has a crush on (and continues to, for several sequels) doesn't care for him. The psychologist goes through the list and provides him with suggestions, but then ends with this stinger:

"Pandora comes under the heading of insoluble problems."

Is Susan Tate (as manager) an insoluble problem?

The right side of my mind wishes dearly that it isn't.

[daknight]

I think the reason that  no one has equated DeGarmo leaving with "jump the shark" is because there were a few moments while he was still with the band, on HITNF. Rest for another thread.

If they jumped the shark at all, to me really, it comes down to what they HAVEN'T done that has possibly been the jump. They need to look at other bands that have been in a similar situation to them and managed to survive and even prosper.

Many people throw around Dream Theater as an example, while I understand that from a fan perspective, I would say from a business model, the case of how Marillion has handled themselves since EMI let them go is a perfect example. They have management that is LIKE family, but is NOT family, and the band members make all decisons. Every band member has solo projects that don't get in the way of the band continuing. While they don't have the higher profile they did while with EMI, it is possible the individual band members may actually be seeing more profits post-major label than while with. How did they do that? Hey, might be a good idea to look into how they have done things and apply it here. Cut the cookie cutter crap, no more flip flops, and take it seriously.

[Zoom E]

I think they almost jumped the shark by recording two weak albums - Hear In the Now Frontier and Q2K - that caused them to lose many of their original fan base. A lot of the old fans abandoned them after that, and while some may have checked out OMII, I doubt that too many of them have heard American Soldier, which is a shame.

I think QR redeemed themselves with Tribe, OMII (yes, I actually do like this album although it's by no means a classic) and American Soldier, so no shark jumping has taken place, IMO. 

[heavymeister]

Well, isn't Susan Tate the reason why Chris left and won't return? From that day on QR went down towards the drain. Maybe there is a way how QR can avoid being swallowed by the sewer. But if Scott, Mike and Ed would actually speak against her, what would happen? Their role seems just to be keeping Geoff happy in order to have a job that pays their living. It looks like the three have put some great efforts into the production of AS. Was it worthwhile? Could it make up to DeGarmo level? There is not the same heartblood like there used to be? Neither on stage nor on record. The GT solo project might have just been a test to see if QR could be run without the three. But would night club promoters pay as much for QR if Geoff would be the only original member? Would QR work without Geoff? QR would probably do a lot better if Chris would steer the ship back into save waters. But then some lady would have to go overboard... 

[raz x]

I agree with you ZOOM E, that they have yet to actually jump the shark, but they came close.  The only way to fully redeem themselves and end their career on a high note would be to get Chris back in the fold as a full member, writing, touring, and all.  Never say never, but sadly I just don't think it will ever happen.

[Rhythm_Of_Hope]

I think they almost jumped the shark by recording two weak albums - Hear In the Now Frontier and Q2K - that caused them to lose many of their original fan base. A lot of the old fans abandoned them after that, and while some may have checked out OMII, I doubt that too many of them have heard American Soldier, which is a shame.

I think QR redeemed themselves with Tribe, OMII (yes, I actually do like this album although it's by no means a classic) and American Soldier, so no shark jumping has taken place, IMO. 

Very good point. I'd also agree with you that Tribe, OMII and especially American Soldier were the right way to go thereafter (the missteps on OMII notwithstanding.) I'd differ with you on HITNF, as I think at that time (and even before, with Promised Land), it was more a case of musical trends not going their way. HITNF isn't as bad an album as Q2K.

[Lucretia]

I'd differ with you on HITNF, as I think at that time (and even before, with Promised Land), it was more a case of musical trends not going their way. HITNF isn't as bad an album as Q2K.

It's funny... I kind of forgive them for HITNF, because just about every band I can think of except maybe Dream Theater had *that* album in the 90's. You know--the one where they tried to "strip down" to fit into what was going on at the time. Some had success, like Metallica with the Loads, but HITNF just didn't work. At all. That said, I still like about half of that album.

[Rhythm_Of_Hope]

It's funny... I kind of forgive them for HITNF, because just about every band I can think of except maybe Dream Theater had *that* album in the 90's.

Off topic, but wouldn't that be Falling Into Infinity? 

HITNF was a good album, but just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time. That, and the disintegration of the band's label, probably hurt it the most. It's given us one indisputable QR classic (sp00L), and a host of other good songs that I still spin to this day. Would've liked it if they'd included Chasing Blue Sky as well, but at least we got that on the remaster.

[Lucretia]

Off topic, but wouldn't that be Falling Into Infinity?

Heh... yeah, I suppose so, but then that's the last DT album I really like, so... 

[Rhythm_Of_Hope]

Heh... yeah, I suppose so, but then that's the last DT album I really like, so... 

Love it too, especially since "Hollow Years" is one of the very few DT songs I can play without making a total clown of myself. I just meant that, after SFAM, Mike Portnoy was quite candid about how they were pressurized by their record company to follow trends and make the album "more commercial" (bringing Desmond Child in for the "You Not Me" rewrite, for example), but it didn't pay off in the end from a marketing perspective.

[Samsara]

Falling into Infinity is Dream Theater's version of Queensryche's Empire.  I've always said that.  It's a more mainstream approach to the band's sound.  I love it, and while I don't like outside writers, Dream Theater needs someone to step in and tell them when enough is enough, because they can't do it themselves.  But that'll never happen again.  Portnoy would start attacking people.