The Breakdown Room - Queensryche Discussion Forum

  • October 23, 2014, 12:13:36 PM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

The Breakdown Room is now closed. It has been a fun and effective 10 years. Thank you everyone.

Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Down

Author Topic: Set List Length  (Read 4027 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Samsara

  • 81 Percent Owner & Operator
  • Administrator
  • Disciple of Dr. X
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 14247
Set List Length
« on: November 27, 2012, 08:24:28 AM »

I've seen some chatter on social media sites questioning why QR's set is only 90 minutes (thereabouts).

I'm wondering what folks think about it.

My opinion is 90 minutes is fine for the band for a number of reasons:

First -- I don't believe Todd is a true tenor. As some vocal examiners have noted, he's more of a high baritone. Meaning he has to work his voice harder then a natural tenor would to sing these songs in the original key. Back in his prime, Tate was a natural tenor and it was easier to go up into the stratosphere for notes. High baritones (think Ray Alder of Fates Warning or Corey Glover of Living Colour) can have that high range, but it takes more work to get there.

The fact the band has experimented with longer sets (Halfway Jam), I think they are trying to find the right length and mix of material. Todd is one hell of a singer, but you're at the mercy of what you are. He can hit all the notes with ease, but it takes a lot more effort if your natural speaking voice is in a lower key.

Second -- Look at the f'in set list. There really are no breaks in there. The only vocal breaks come when the Empire stuff is done at the end. Todd is wailing from the get-go. If you're going to do that type of set, it naturally should be shorter.

People forget -- Queensryche, back in 1987, with the EP, Warning and Rage to draw from, only played 80, 85 minute headline sets. They didn't play two hours. They did on the Mindcrime album headline shows (or got close, 110 minutes), but as people have keenly noticed...Geoff was struggling to hit many of the notes he hit with ease just two years earlier.

Will the set lengthen? I don't think it NEEDS to, as 90 minutes is perfectly acceptable these days, but it may, particularly if they start incorporating some more Empire and PL tunes, which will give Todd's voice a bit of a rest. Not to mention some new tunes as they get the album done and are ready to play them live.

What are your thoughts? Obviously, we're all greedy music lovers. I'd love to see QR go out and do 2 hour sets every night. But unlike a certain other singer that talks his way through songs and doesn't even bother stretching his voice to hit notes, Todd is wailing away night after night. Do you want 90 minutes of that, or 125 minutes of talking?

I know what I'd pick...
Logged

AlamoCityRycher

  • Moderator
  • Disciple of Dr. X
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2694
  • Il Duce of the Ryche
Re: Set List Length
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2012, 08:28:54 AM »

90 minutes of wailing, no question. I do like Lucretia's idea of positioning certain songs to give TLT a bit of a respite, though. And that might even work in favor of a longer set list. Maybe not 120 minutes, but another couple of songs in the set list would be great if they could manage it. If not, though, I'm cool with it.
Logged
"'he can't sing the old stuff but that's for 20 year olds'...There's a damn near 40 year old who's out on the stage every goddamn night absolutely nailing the 'old stuff' and blowing the roof off of every place he goes. His name is Todd, and he is the future." — rukh316

Samsara

  • 81 Percent Owner & Operator
  • Administrator
  • Disciple of Dr. X
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 14247
Re: Set List Length
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2012, 08:30:54 AM »

Agreed. I think they need to give him more breathers. He may not want them, but it would be helpful in the long run.

90 minutes is fine with me, as long as they start rotating songs, so the same set isn't played each night. I think that might happen given the size of the QR catalog, but again, they need to be touring regularly. One-offs don't really allow a band to get comfortable playing different sets and rotating songs.

That may change as they tour.
Logged

Walkin Theshire

  • BdR Supporter
  • Global Mind
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 474
Re: Set List Length
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2012, 08:36:28 AM »

And if or when they start rotating songs, it will hopefully be for Todd's benefit - find what song order(s) his voice is most comfortable with throughout the show.  I'm also for the less talk, more music.  That's what we go to concerts for, right?
Logged
"...it's bigger than that. It's basically the entity of the name, what it means, the inherent value, creatively, and everything encompassed with the fans. As far as revenue streams, whatever, that's all part of it, but it's what's in our hearts that matters." – Michael Wilton

ShadowWalker

  • Moderator
  • Disciple of Dr. X
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3218
Re: Set List Length
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2012, 08:39:28 AM »

One would hope that in these off hours, TLT is working with vocal coach to condition the muscles associated with singing these songs, coupled with doing some other physical training for endurance which should result in a longer setlist that leans close to the 2-hoiur mark without sacrificing the quality of the performance. When I see someone like Springsteen go for 3+ hours (some shows on this tour were clocking in at nearly four), I think most should be able to do 2 without issue, assuming they are doing things to keep the vocals in shape.

For a band like Queensryche with a deep enough catalog to easily cover a 2-hour set, even with the limited slice the band is carving out to draw from, Todd should be doing all he can to get that endurance up and deliver something that approaches two hours. And I have no problems if some of the slower songs are added in so his vocals get a break (i.e. why Maiden this time around chose Afraid to Shoot Strangers over Infinite Dreams and dropped Hallowed Be Thy Name on the recent Maiden England tour). I would love to hear something like No Sanctuary or I Will Remember as part of the set. Or even do something like what the band did on the Tribe tour and work in a mini acoustic set to provide that proverbial break. Queensryche has always been multifaceted from the get-go and if they are staying true to their roots, this would not derail any momentum. There are ways to get to that target 2-hour point without sacrificing quality, even in the current state. It is a question of are they motivated as a band to do what needs to be done on that front or not...
Logged

TonyFlyingSquirrel

  • Disciple of Dr. X
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 1337
  • The Sensation of the Cherokee Nation!
    • Wor Party/band homepage
Re: Set List Length
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2012, 08:41:52 AM »

Most bands performing in larger arenas still perform an average of a 90 min set.

I saw Neil young recently at the key arena, and even though he doesn't sing as much as QR does in a 90 minute set (lots of run on guitar solo jamming), it was still plenty of time and you walked away feeling like you had a full presentation.

Seeing Dream Theater perform for a sold 3 hours left me exhausted from all of the polyrhythmic info and key/gtr solos.

I wouldn't mind seeing QR place a well written (not emphasizing solos) instrumental in the middle of the set.  Since TLT is also an instrumentalist, this might give the audience an opportunity to see what non vocal contributions he is also making to the music of QR in addition to the vocals of QR, and it would give his voice the break that he needs in the middle of the set.  We know that he plays drums, gtr, and possibly keys.  We've only seen GT play tid bits of key one shots and the sax and that's about it.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 08:49:11 AM by TonyFlyingSquirrel »
Logged
Bite off more than  you can chew, then start chewin'.

IncredibleFulk

  • Global Mind
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 600
Re: Set List Length
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2012, 08:42:17 AM »

I initially thought it was short, but after thinking about it I realized nobody can sustain that kind of effort for 2+ hours. Quality over Quantity.

My REAL complaint has been my main complaint since I first saw them in 1997. That is the 'set in stone' setlist. I thought it was Geoff's "theatrics" that were to blame, having to run everything like a Broadway show instead of a rock 'n roll show. Now I'm not so sure, although I will say that Todd is so new that they probably want to perfect the songs before bringing them in.

Other than QR, most of my live musical experience is Dream Theater and Dave Matthews Band. Both of which (especially DMB) will just pull out random songs from their asses. I've seen Dave 3 shows in a row, and barely heard a repeat song. I'll give Todd time to get it all down, but that's what I'd expect to hear a few years from now. Otherwise I'll be disappointed in that regard.
Logged

Freedommetal

  • Global Mind
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 294
Re: Set List Length
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2012, 08:48:35 AM »

I think 90 minutes works, especially with what Todd is having to sing. Maiden does a two hour set, but their songs are longer and they usually do 16 - 17 songs. The difference is Bruce gets a break and they always throw some easier to sing tracks to help his voice. The set length is fine, especially with what Todd has to sing.
Logged

ShadowWalker

  • Moderator
  • Disciple of Dr. X
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3218
Re: Set List Length
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2012, 08:48:50 AM »

Most bands performing in larger arenas still perform N average of a 90 min set.

Unless we are talking about concerts with two or more opening acts, I 100% expect a headliner with a single opening act to play for 2 hours. And I have seen bands (i.e. The Cure) play for 3 hours with an opening act, and in my experience most do hit the 2-hour or close to it mark if we are talking bands playing arenas. If they hit the 1:45 mark, I usually refrain from complaining.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2012, 08:59:05 AM by ShadowWalker »
Logged

ShadowWalker

  • Moderator
  • Disciple of Dr. X
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3218
Re: Set List Length
« Reply #9 on: November 27, 2012, 08:58:19 AM »

Other than QR, most of my live musical experience is Dream Theater and Dave Matthews Band. Both of which (especially DMB) will just pull out random songs from their asses. I've seen Dave 3 shows in a row, and barely heard a repeat song.

Without Portnoy, DT has defaulted back to a setlist with very little changes from night-to-night. DMB fits in to the jam band category and that is 100% the norm for shows to have different setlists from night-to-night with very little repeats, especially if there are multiple nights in the same arena.

And I don't necessarily expect rotating setlists. I think most fans outside the jam band scene don't take in multiple shows every tour, so I can understand why a band wants the experience to be the same for all on a given tour (I was actually disappointed at the songs on the current Rush tour that were swapped out when I saw them for songs I wasn't interested in). I would rather hear a firm setlist done to perfection than random songs played played unrehearsed or under-rehearsed when done in a one-off fashion. I just want to hear 2 hours or close to it of that firm setlist.
Logged

jsarre

  • BdR Supporter
  • Initiate
  • ***
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 45
Re: Set List Length
« Reply #10 on: November 27, 2012, 09:26:55 AM »

I haven't seen the TLT lead QR yet but I was surprised to hear the set length was only 90 minutes. How much "talking" does Todd do with the audience between songs? Headlining Tate-lead QR shows that I have attended have always reached the 2 hour mark, but Tate would always go on these rants that would easily last 5 minutes. I remember back in 1999 on the Q2K tour where he wouldn't shut up about people having sex in the balcony at another show, and how the cops asked him if he wanted to press charges. The audience got fed up with this pretty quickly and I remember people yelling at him to shut up and just sing. Then he did another rant for "Bullet the Blue Sky", I remember people booing at the end of that one! Anyway, if the current QR is playing 90 minutes of nothing but tunes I'm all for that! They do need to add "Anarchy X-tra" at the end of "Eyes" though.
Logged

Samsara

  • 81 Percent Owner & Operator
  • Administrator
  • Disciple of Dr. X
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 14247
Re: Set List Length
« Reply #11 on: November 27, 2012, 09:53:36 AM »

Agreed on Anarchy-Xtra (the Anarchy-X reprise). That needs to be learned again by the band to close out Eyes of a Stranger. It doesn't sound right anymore without it.

Interesting responses. SW -- bands like The Cure and Springsteen also don't have a vocalist singing at the top end of the tenor range the entire time. It's a different beast.

Dream Theater is a good comparison...but note that most of DT's songs have big instrumental breaks that take up good chunks of time. In a two hour DT show, James is only probably singing for 90 minutes.

Logged

Teardrop Collector

  • Global Mind
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 285
Re: Set List Length
« Reply #12 on: November 27, 2012, 10:06:37 AM »

Agreed on Anarchy-Xtra (the Anarchy-X reprise). That needs to be learned again by the band to close out Eyes of a Stranger. It doesn't sound right anymore without it.

Interesting responses. SW -- bands like The Cure and Springsteen also don't have a vocalist singing at the top end of the tenor range the entire time. It's a different beast.

Dream Theater is a good comparison...but note that most of DT's songs have big instrumental breaks that take up good chunks of time. In a two hour DT show, James is only probably singing for 90 minutes.



Good points there.

It also makes a difference if you are on your own tour or if you are closing a multi-band festival lineup.

For their own tour they should attempt to play 2 hrs. It is part of the art to come up with a set list that accounts for an arc of suspense and enables players/vocalists to endure not only one show but a whole tour.

I am usually feeling kinda let down after 90min, especially if the show is good! Then I want more, and not just a little bit.

Honestly, I don't even want Todd to wail in the stratosphere the whole time, it's not a sport and if you have a wide range (voice and instrument) you should use it. Otherwise it gets boring.
Logged

IncredibleFulk

  • Global Mind
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 600
Re: Set List Length
« Reply #13 on: November 27, 2012, 10:09:50 AM »

Absolutely right on with DT (and re: the prior point, I haven't yet seen them sans-Portnoy). But Labrie gets so many breaks, I've seen him vanish for minutes at a time - even saw him come rolling out on a Razor scooter once :)

What I am going to guess, with absolutely no evidence to back me, is that it's about the material. They aren't going to play a song they haven't perfected, and Todd just hasn't had the time to perfect enough songs. Once they are playing half the setlist of the new album, I'll bet we see 2 hour setlists.
Logged

Grendelsan

  • Global Mind
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 811
  • Gomasuri
    • Rutger Hauer Forum
Re: Set List Length
« Reply #14 on: November 27, 2012, 10:13:41 AM »

I guess I'm spoiled. Apart from Queensryche, the concerts I've been to the most involve Elton John and he routinely plays 2.5 hour shows. There is a huge difference, of course, in the type of music, though Elton does have some rockers. I think his trick is to do a few fast songs, then throttle back with a few ballads, then some mid tempo, back to fast, etc. In other words, he staggers his songs to offer rest within the setlist. He also has more rest (at least vocally) when he goes into piano solos, which can last 5 minutes or more at times. It's also well known that he can't sing in the falsetto that he used in the 70s, so there's less effort in singing in a lower range than in the past. Still, 2.5 hours night after night for a nearly 70 year old is pretty amazing if you ask me.

In Queensryche's case, 90 minutes seems a bit short, but like Samsara said, the setlist is balls to the wind rocking nonstop. I think staggering the songs a bit more and throwing in more vocally "restive" songs like I Will Remember, or Someone Else will add to the set.

The most unpopular option, probably, would be to add songs from the entirety of QR's catalog. O:2 and O:3 eras offer lower range songs that fit T*te's vocals better as they deteriorated. Their inclusion may help lengthen the show without taxing Todd's vocal chords too much further.

Focusing only on the O:1 era, though, would be tough to extend much beyond 90, especially if the touring schedule is going to pick up. We have to remember that EP-PL is some of the most challenging music ever recorded. 90 minutes of it is a treat! Again, adding a few ballads might extend it, but not by much.

Regardless, I wouldn't want them to go more than 2 hours. How much awesomeness can an audience really take at one time, really?  :metal:
Logged

Rockox

  • Disciple of Dr. X
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 2226
  • /str/ does not equal /shtr/
Re: Set List Length
« Reply #15 on: November 27, 2012, 10:17:47 AM »

Once they are playing half the setlist of the new album, I'll bet we see 2 hour setlists.

That's what I'm thinking too. As much as TLT can hit most of the higher notes of QR's older material, it still sounds a bit outside of his comfort range (or maybe that's just due to him not yet being properly conditioned as ShadowWalker suggested) and let's face it, that stuff is HIGH. Once they're playing the new stuff, with Todd singing exactly what and how he wants to sing, I could see the sets being a bit longer. But I think 90 minutes is perfectly acceptable right now.
Logged
I play golf with Chris DeGarmo.

IncredibleFulk

  • Global Mind
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 600
Re: Set List Length
« Reply #16 on: November 27, 2012, 10:41:17 AM »

The most unpopular option, probably, would be to add songs from the entirety of QR's catalog. O:2 and O:3 eras offer lower range songs that fit T*te's vocals better as they deteriorated. Their inclusion may help lengthen the show without taxing Todd's vocal chords too much further.

What about more Empire to rest the vocals? I'm not a singer, but I'd imagine Another Rainy Night, Best I Can, etc would be a lot less stressful to sing.
Logged

Samsara

  • 81 Percent Owner & Operator
  • Administrator
  • Disciple of Dr. X
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 14247
Re: Set List Length
« Reply #17 on: November 27, 2012, 10:41:52 AM »

Absolutely right on with DT (and re: the prior point, I haven't yet seen them sans-Portnoy). But Labrie gets so many breaks, I've seen him vanish for minutes at a time - even saw him come rolling out on a Razor scooter once :)

What I am going to guess, with absolutely no evidence to back me, is that it's about the material. They aren't going to play a song they haven't perfected, and Todd just hasn't had the time to perfect enough songs. Once they are playing half the setlist of the new album, I'll bet we see 2 hour setlists.


Good point on when the new album is out, Fulk. And can I call you by your real name on here. Hell dude, I've known you for 16 years at this point, it's a little silly. LOL
Logged

Samsara

  • 81 Percent Owner & Operator
  • Administrator
  • Disciple of Dr. X
  • *****
  • Offline Offline
  • Gender: Male
  • Posts: 14247
Re: Set List Length
« Reply #18 on: November 27, 2012, 10:44:31 AM »

The most unpopular option, probably, would be to add songs from the entirety of QR's catalog. O:2 and O:3 eras offer lower range songs that fit T*te's vocals better as they deteriorated. Their inclusion may help lengthen the show without taxing Todd's vocal chords too much further.

What about more Empire to rest the vocals? I'm not a singer, but I'd imagine Another Rainy Night, Best I Can, etc would be a lot less stressful to sing.

Some are easier, but it depends. I've learned a lot about singing since I got married to a killer vocalist, and I've gotten a lot better as a singer myself. Empire can be tricky, because some of the songs are nuanced in a way that makes them more challenging at times, depending on your own voice. Todd's also still experimenting a bit with how he's singing stuff. I think in time, he'll obviously find what works for him, and then they'll tailor the set around his comfort zone.
Logged

IncredibleFulk

  • Global Mind
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 600
Re: Set List Length
« Reply #19 on: November 27, 2012, 10:51:26 AM »

Good point on when the new album is out, Fulk. And can I call you by your real name on here. Hell dude, I've known you for 16 years at this point, it's a little silly. LOL

I dont know, does anybody else go by their real name on here? LOL Yes you can call me Larry but even my wife calls me Fulk jokingly sometimes. Am I supposed to call you Samsara or what? :)
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4   Go Up